Book Review: Profit First
Mike Michalowicz is a celebrated author and speaker who has led a successful career in accounting and business. He recently released his latest book, Profit First, which offers up some groundbreaking ideas about how to build profit.
Today, James and Garret present the main ideas of this book and engage in an open discussion about them. Drawing from several years of experience, they use this conversation to openly consider these new ideas and their implications for business owners and accountants.
On this episode you’ll hear:
- The core ideas found in Profit First by Mike Michalowicz
- The profit margins your business should aim for
- How to divide your money
- Other useful practices to increase profit
If you’re looking for some powerful new ways to think about profit, then this is one episode you won’t want to miss.
- Free Chapter of “Profit Leaks” by James Kennedy and Garret Carragher
- Profit First
Transcription of This Episode
The Gross Profit Podcast is your one stop shop on the path to profitability. Each week we share authentic advice on the positive practical steps you can take to make the company you love more profitable. If you’re looking for a positive plan to help you avoid common spending mistakes, control costs, and increase your profits, then this is the place for you. I’m Ryan Cowden and this week we’re joined by James Kennedy and Garret Carrager. In this episode of the Gross Profit Podcast, James and Garret analyze the ideas presented in the book Profit First by Mike Michalowicz. Mike Michalowicz is a celebrated author and speaker who has led a successful career in accounting and business. He recently released his latest book, Profit First, which offers up some groundbreaking ideas about how to build profit. Today James and Garret present the main ideas of this book and engage in an open discussion about them. Drawing from several years of experience, they use this conversation to openly consider these new ideas and their implications for business owners and accountants.
On this episode, you’ll hear the core ideas found in the book Profit First. The traditional view of profit holds that your profit consists of what is leftover after you deduct your expenses from your sales. The new view put forward by Mike Michalowicz, suggests that you make profit your priority, taking out the profit you want first and running the business on the rest of your money. Next we’ll talk about the profit margins your business should aim for. There is no single right answer, but you can find what the normal profit margins are for companies in your field. Find out what those margins are and aim for those. Then we’ll talk about how to divide your money. This theory taps into ideas about human psychology and claims that you should be dividing your money up into five separate accounts, including one for your profit to help you get to the profit you desire.
And finally, we’ll share some other useful practices to increase your profit. We’ll talk about how strategic budgeting and quarterly payouts can actually have a big impact on your profit margins. If you’re looking for some powerful new ways to think about profit, then this is one episode you won’t want to miss. There is a lot of actionable advice in this episode, so grab something to write with because you’re going to want to take notes. As always, I’ll be back on the other side to wrap up any loose ends, so without any further ado, here’s our conversation with James and Garret.
Good morning or good afternoon listeners. It’s afternoon here in Dublin. We are coming to you recording live, as they say. I’m joined once again by regular, my partner in crime or finance, let’s call it, the secret CFO, Garret Carrager. How are you Garret?
Good. There’s no crime here, James, there’s no crime here just in case anyone from the revenues is listening, there’s certainly no crime. Yeah. It’s all good. I’ve had a super busy week, messing around at work. How have you been?
I’ve been great. It always amazes me how careful two groups of people are, lawyers and accountants about any suggestion of impropriety and they get very kerfuffled all together, so it’s okay. I’m sure the revenue understand lighthearted banter when they hear it, maybe a little bit of sarcasm colloquially, I’m sure they are okay with non-traditional use of the English language.
That just highlights your lack of experience with the revenue GMs. It just shows me you’ve never actually talked to anyone in revenue. You’ve never had a meeting with them. They will just immediately, they’re like the guards or the police. There’s no joking with these guys, you know what I mean? They take everything so seriously, anything about money, they’re all over us, you know?
Well funnily enough I did have quite a dealing with the revenue in a past life?
Yeah. Maybe we should talk about that some time.
Can tell you about the audit that my accountant triggered for me, God love him. That was great crack. That’s another day story. But today we are talking about profits, my favorite topic. And given that we are the Gross Profit Podcast, I read the book Profit First. Great headline, Garret, immediately caught my attention as a business owner, as I’m sure you can imagine.
I can imagine. Yeah, looking forward to hearing it, I know you’ve read it. You have a good understanding of the concepts and I’m just quite interested to hear how it works and I’ll give you a back my own thoughts on it then.
Yeah, so for once I’m going to be the one dropping the knowledge on this podcast and first thing is, so I came across Profit First, it’s been a few years now I’ve been aware of it. I heard on some other podcast, I think they talked about it on Rogue Startups where I heard about it first. It’s by a guy called Mike Michalowicz, and I hope I am pronouncing that correctly. He is American. He’s written a number of books, the Pumpkin Plan and, now this is a big one though, Profit First. And he is a speaker, he’s an accountant, he is in business. He owns a small business manufacturing leather company, as I understand it.
And I listened to the audiobook, which was excellent because it was actually, as he’s a speaker, he was very good actually reading his own book and I would recommend it because he… Maybe get the paper copy and the audio book because he adds a few extra bits of tips in the audio book you don’t get in the book itself. But it is a great title and I don’t want to say the title is misleading, but it’s definitely selling the sizzle. It’s a lot more… Going into this, I thought basically this was going to be one concept which was, pay yourself first, which you see in some other financial advice books. I’m pretty sure Rich Dad, Poor Dad, or some of those financial advice books recommend paying yourself first, I.E. take out your savings or take out your tax and everything first and make sure you pay your everyone else after that, which is generally a good rule.
But this is a lot more than that actually, when you get into it on. It’s far more about dealing with the emotional turmoil that comes with running a small business. I would say this book is best suited to small business owners who have become successful. So they’ve gone over the lip from being an employee, to self-employed, to employing people. And I’d say it kicks in, probably from the very start if you have these practices, I’d say it would be worthwhile anywhere up to the point where you get a full time commercial accountant on your team. That’s probably where it brings it up to. And maybe you could bring some of the principles past that. But I’d certainly say it’s mostly aimed at people who are sort of before that, that are still working with a bookkeeper or a professional accountant who to do their taxes every, outsource an accountant every period.
And the core principle comes just like that, traditionally your profit is equal to your sales, minus your expenses. And subtly he changes it slightly in that he says that he takes your sales, your turnover, you take out what profit you believe you should take out, and the remainder is what you have to run the business with. So a kind of contrarian view there. And the first thing that I found very interesting was that he actually provides a table to give you an idea of what sort of profit you should be running at different sizes of business. So Garret, is it true that in your experience that the bigger you get as a company, the less profit percentage you’re going to get away with?
I think it’s not by the size of company from my experience, it’s more the industry. So if you look at companies say in food, food is super competitive so I can see… I’m looking up this fellow on his website, I can see him here, he’s super smiley, but any fellow who spends as much time as he does in the gym, I’m just going to worry about his principles here. Whereas I would bring in a principle to you, which is Porter’s Five Forces, a well-known academic, Mikey Porter, who’s written the business books. And in his business book he wouldn’t talk about the size of the company, he would talk about the five forces acting on a company, which is like your purchasing power, your power of your customers, new interests or competition in the market. And there’s another one which just escapes me, I’m sure it’ll come back to me.
But he would talk about that. So, that would actually more affect the profitability of a company rather than the size of a company. So if you think about the food industry, it’s highly competitive. There’s low barriers of entry to new people. If you’re a manufacturer of food, like a farmer or producer of food, you don’t manufacture food obviously if you’re a producer. You’re only selling to supermarkets, so you have low bargaining power there because the supermarkets are your only way to get your product out there. So that’s another problem for you.
And then you’re buying off people who supply you with seeds or whatever, supply you with fertilizer and different things like that. And you might have a bit of bargaining power on that side, but probably not because you’re quite small. Usually producers are smaller. So when you look at some of [inaudible 00:09:17] Porter’s Five Forces would tell you, food production is a bad sector or industry to get into. And it would also tell you immediately that the profit would be quite low. Whereas you look at tech and different other things, it can be much higher. So, that’s my experience on that one anyway.
Oh yeah. The well-known high-profit tech industry. I know how that works. So listen, Porter’s Five Forces, great, but let’s face it, it’s a snooze fest because it doesn’t really tell you how much profit you should get. What’s a much more interesting is Mike Michalowicz’s table, he has it all laid out here. So if you’re earning up to 250K a year, so you’re probably self-employed, maybe one or two employers, half of that should really be going on your owner’s pay, owner’s comp, as you would call it, compensation. You can probably have 5% profit. So a large profit margin and no matter what type of company you’re in, I mean unless you’re taking that out, you’re probably doing it wrong, right?
There is this idea that no matter what you do in life, if you’re the best at it, you will get very well compensated. I’m sure that if you’re the right type of, let’s say traditionally low pay industry, cleaning for example, you might not get very well paid cleaning a supermarket, but maybe if you cleaned space shuttles, you’ll get way better paid. So, no matter what you’re in, sector of industry, I’d say under a certain amount, at least you’d aim it at… If you can’t aim towards getting 55% owner’s compound profit together, if your business is doing 250K, you’re doing something wrong. You should at least push yourself to get to that. How do you feel about that Garret?
I’m going to say that is BS. I just don’t believe that for one moment. That’s more like… What would you call that? Contractor, sorry, or something. Or consultants, consultants. That’s what I think a consultant could do.
That’s a good point. I mean if you have…
… Consultants, you know? That’s what I think a consultant could do.
Well, that’s a good point. I mean, if you have a consultant, you can probably get today’s market in Dublin, work for the government or something. You get a 190 grand, maybe. And more of that’s… You take care of your tax, you take out your transport cost maybe, and that’s a good… It’s got to be at least 50% profits, 60%.
Yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah.
And then, as you go up the different scales, up to 500K, then you should profit. Your owner’s comp should shrink 35%, so your owner’s comp shrinks as a scale goes up, profit slowly goes up. By the time you got to a million, you should be aiming for 10% profit, 10% owner’s comp.
And I get your point about the industry, totally. And he actually recommended that in a book. But the first point is, within your industry, whatever your industry is, you should go and try and research and find out, well, what are the best companies doing, in terms of profit and owners comp? What is possible? Benchmark yourself. I didn’t actually set that goal.
So you know he recommends, look you can look at… It’s hard, if you have a smaller business that might be tricky. Maybe, could you use companies house with figures there, to have a look at industry types, Garret?
Sure, you could. Yeah. Yeah, I think, I’ve often wondered about these, where do you get the information from. But, there is lots of statistics out there, like [Mintel 00:12:20] and these different things would provide you with business research, statistics. As you can look at and see, once you reach a certain size obviously, it’ll tell you, for this sector, for these many employees, how much should your business be earning on a percentage wise? And I think that’s a super good point you make, James. That’s what everyone should really be doing. Anyone listen to this should go investigate that, understand then, for their sector, for their size of company, for their revenue, for their number of employees, what should they have expect to be hitting on their gross profit and then on their net profit percentage? And really dig into those numbers.
And then if you’re not hitting them, you need to be able to explain why. This is where I always say it’s not the numbers, they’re only telling you a story. They’re telling you about either something good has happened or they’re telling you some problem or some issue. And really what you need to do is really dig into the why. Why is your percentage down? Why is your percentage up? Why is this down, why is your revenue down? Why is your revenue flying? You need to understand the why, why, why. And once you understand that, then you can make good business decisions and drive your business forward.
So it’ll be no surprise to our listeners to know that, the secret CFO easily takes home a million euros each year. As one of the top professionals in the industry and, so that means for the purpose of this example, 10% will be on owner’s comp and then another 10% for profit. So whatever your target is, you set them up and you say aim is to work towards that.
And the obvious objection I had here, was that you said, well it’s all very well, paying myself a hundred grand and then taking another 200, a hundred grand in profit. But what if the business can’t afford it?
Yeah, that makes sense. Isn’t it like… That’s why I can’t understand. But I’m sure you’ll probably get to it. Like how is he working this out? Is he seeing that you need to, based on his table, he’s saying that you need to take this profit? Or is he saying, look up the industry and then book that in? Or you know-
You wouldn’t start taking it from day one, would you? You’d kind of see how it’s going on for six months and you may be taking off to keep it going and then you see after six months, well, actually in the bank, we’re on track to hit this number. So let’s start taking the cash, or how does it work in practice?
Well my go-to move is going to be loading up a load of credit cards, but it turns out he has a better plan than that.
We must do a podcast on credit card fraud. Surely, that is our niche area, at this stage. You know what I mean? It would go down very well with the listeners.
So, I like his approach. So he takes a similar approach too, I recommend people if this was your appetite, go and read the book. This might be a bit of a poor man’s explanation, but I like his approach. He takes an analogy, which is the problem is not the math. The problem is the people. And the psychology of dealing with a, a little bit what does the hair shampoo people say? You’re worth it? Well, are you worth it? You have to say that it normalized the idea. If that much profit is actually normal, people in your, the top performers in your sector do achieve those levels of compensation and profit. So why not you? Or, you certainly should be aiming for it, you know? Or something’s wrong.
The next thing he does, is he borrows from dieting advice. And so for example, what he does is physically when you’re on a diet, you often hear the advice, use a smaller plate, make your food look like more. And he takes a similar approach and that he says, that what you do is you set up a number of, he calls them foundational accounts. Have one account where your suppliers will pay you into, or your vendor, or your customers rather, will pay you into. And as soon as the money hits that, or twice a month on the 10th and the 25th, you split that cash out straight away.
The first thing you do is you give the government their money. And when he says that, he means that tax is the government’s money. It’s not your money. Sales tax and income tax, it belongs to the government. So you straight away have to put that into another account, in a separate bank you do not have online access to. That might sound horrific in today’s modern times, but the whole point is to get that money away from you. It was never yours in the first place and you should just make sure you don’t get into trouble.
Here, in Ireland, your government gives you 18 months sort of break. You don’t have to make tax returns in the first 18 months. Oftentimes, people get into trouble straight away, because they used our tax money, which should have gone to the government. Because, eventually they do collect it. You use it to get the business going and they’re always on the back foot after that. And are probably, if I had to guess, there’s 50% of businesses fail each year. A good another 25%, if I were to guess, are marginal businesses that never really get into profit, because they’re always, it was used that tax money. While they’re get investment or save it up or do whatever, but don’t use the government’s money. So that’s the first thing. I think you would agree with that, Garret? Get that government money out of the way, no?
Yeah. What I think what he’s referring to here in his book, and it is actually been proven, is at book by Daniel Candyman and also Richard Taylor. And also, I don’t know if I call it Steven Pinker. And they have written books about psychology, they’re psychologists. I’m actually, as you know, I’ve done a higher diploma in psychology myself, and this is helping me to understand the way people think, although not you GMs, but I’m still working on that one.
But Richard Taylor, I was reading, he has written a great book called Nudge. And Daniel won, actually, the Nobel prize for economics. I think it was for psychology. Anyway, in the book, Richard Taylor’s book, Nudge. What he was able to prove is that, if people would put money aside into different pots and call the pots, say you know, a new car, mortgage budget, holiday, whatever. They actually won’t spend the money. Because, they see the money as different… It’s to do with, I think, it’s some cost fallacy. And also moving one into different pots makes you think differently about the cash and where it’s going to go to.
So if you’ve all the money in your one bank account, you just see it as, this is all the money here, I can spend this money. It’s hard for you to differentiate between it. Whereas if you use the technique and I think it’s the technique you described there, of moving money to different bank accounts. I don’t know, I don’t even think it matters if it’s hard to get to or not. If you just move it to another bank account and rename the bank account as tax money, or revenue money, or whatever you want to call it. Or, R&D investment, or [Caplet Spending 00:00:18:53], or whatever you want to call it. You look at the money differently then.
So when you’re doing your accounts each one, or thinking, can I afford to hire a new employee? Can I afford to spend that money on a new laptop, or a new company car or a new phone, or whatever? Suddenly, you think, well, actually in my bank account I only have so much money and you don’t actually look at the other accounts because you think they’re separate. Even though it’s all your money and even though you can do what you want with it, just renaming of it and putting into a different bucket or a different jar. In your mind, it separates it out. So actually there’s good science behind that idea. And that actually idea, I think would work quite well for a lot of people. A lot of businesses.
Yeah. I’ve seen a budgeting system where you use envelopes, as well. People do it, they put [crosstalk 00:19:35] back from back in the day. And there’s another one called [Why Nab, 00:08:36], you need a budget which uses a similar idea. So yeah, I think we’re on board with this. So this gets the secret CFO seal-of-approval for the first account, that’s good.
Next up, profit. He says put your profit away. So whatever that benchmark you aimed for. Now, this is where we get into nitty gritty. What happens if you are starting off with zero profit? As a lot of people will be. And you figured out that [inaudible 00:20:01] in industry is 10%, do just take 10% and put it away? No. What you do is, you name the account, you name it profit brackets. And then, he has two things. T-A-P-S, which is target allocated percentage and current allocation percentage. And you put in TAPS, which is basically what you want to get to. So let’s say 10% on caps, which is what you’re currently do, zero. And you start off at zero and you increase it by 1% each quarter.
So you start off by saying, even if it’s… You’re making a million, so on a quarterly basis, [inaudible 00:20:43] a monthly basis, make it a million. So that’s about 82000 a month, right? And then, if 1% of that is 800 Euro, right? So 800 Euro is not a lot of money. It doesn’t matter. You get into the habit of putting 1% away into a separate account, which is now locked in and will never come out of that account. It makes sense. And what we’re going to do then, each quarter you increase our percentage by 1%, because you can afford an extra 1% easily each month. Of course. Where does it come from? Still those needs to come from somewhere.
And what you do is you go onto your next account, which is your OPEX account and you find the 1% in that account. Most businesses haven’t done a rationalization in a way, you dive into your OPEX. You can eek out 1% pretty easily and I think we’ve done a few podcasts on how to do that. There’s a range of different… And in fact, we’ve written the book on how to find 1% of your OPEX spend, and you allocate the saving that you found in your OPEX budget and you give some techniques along how to identify that. Go through all your OPEX spend, figure out which expend is vital, which spend is recurring, and he recommends you cancel a recurring payments. Which is terrible advice, because that’s how we build people, but anyway, that’s what he recommends. Pay everything by check and then get rid of anything that’s not necessary to run…
By check and then get rid of anything that’s not necessary to running the business. So using those three technique, that’s actually how you find the 1%, and if you need extra 1% for your seminar, for your tax and your owner’s pay as well, your owner’s pay also has a taps and a comp. So it also has a percentage, a target allocation for what you get paid for running the business.
If there’s a Delta there, similar situation. If you’re getting 8% at the moment and the industry average is 10, you increased out to 9%, you dig another 1% out of Alpaca somewhere to balance that out. And that’s how you, over time, work towards your Profit First objective.
So as an interesting, up to a couple of points, first point I want to say is working people to get our grip book and contact us, James, please.
So guests booked up, procurement express.com where you can sign up for a free chapter and then you’ll get an email where it’ll tell you where you can buy a copy of the book and it will be on Amazon soon I think. And if not, I actually have a bunch of them here. I’ll mail you one as well. So that’s the first question answered.
Chris. That’s very good. So they can just email yourself. James, it was a James.Kennedy@procurementexpress.com-
Yeah, yeah, that’s correct.
Yeah. Any questions? Bind them in there to James. We’re happy to answer them.
So thinking about what the process you’ve just described there, what that sends to me is what I’ve always said. I’ve probably said it a few times in the podcast, which is two things there. What measured gets done, and I really strongly believe in that and I’ve seen that in practice, which I can give you an example of. And second of all, it’s called budgeting. Because what you’ve done there is you’ve said, I’m going to come up with a budget, which is to reduce these costs so much over a period of time and increase my profit and that’s really just working out a budget and you’re just seeing these are the costs I want to have over the lifetime and this is what I’m going to do.
So it’s kind of like more of a generalized budget isn’t it, where you sit, you set a goal and I suppose the question might be why not 5% a quarter instead of 1%. You’d have to think about that. So that’s where you might do a budget. It might be more valuable. We’ve actually done a couple of podcasts on budgets. You can go back and listen to those and, and we have our template up there, you can access that and it give us a shout as well that you can email James. We’re happy to answer any questions on that but.
I think to me that’s more like a budgeting thing and with the budgeting it’s more detailed because you might go through your budget and suddenly you discover actually we’re spending too much on marketing because everything’s interconnected with a budget.
So you say, okay, I need to see us to be X and that means I need marketing, to be Y, and I also need to see as manager or or another sales person to do the sales. So that’s kind of more connected where I think this book is kind of recommending more just of a generalized reduction of costs, what I’m looking at, the impact on them. And that can work, but again, you need to have that into your budget.
So that’s where I’d look at that one. The other one I think about is, as I said, what gets measured gets done and you know, so once you start looking even at your costs and you’re starting to measure them, and, you start to quantify them and you start to think about the more in depth, they will change. Like that’s just a fact. And they will start going down on.
I think it’s more, it’s more individual. People should really look at their numbers and rating. What can I reduce these costs by? Because maybe in the first year you could actually reduce your cost by 12%, but the year after that it is maybe 1% a year. And so maybe just a quicker win there and then not so much over the longterm, which is what I see in a lot of businesses. And I think what gets measured gets done.
Even, I can tell you in my own business now, recently over the last few months I’ve been working close with a project manager who’s being having, I wouldn’t say difficulties, but maybe wasn’t just as focused on the right metrics that he should have been, and made large changes that are really… it’s really mostly just meeting with people and just talking to them and showing them you’re there and a bit of leadership and giving them a bit of direction, a bit of a hand up. And now they’re making astronomical sales. It’s been noted. The MD has said it to me, just Eval copters. They . said that the profits here has increased significantly. And really that’s just standard to get what gets measured gets done. You know, if you follow up, if you say my focus is going to be on revenue, I guarantee your revenue change. You see my focus is going to be in cost. I guarantee you can reduce your costs. So that’s my thoughts on that one James.
Pretty good. So in summary then, the principles of the book are that you actually use different… In a midsize business, you work with your accounting team to use budgets. If you’re a smaller business, these are budgets, and we’ve discussed before these five, accounts that they use to run this system. It’s a type of budgeting. It’s a bit differently to how you’d see it in your financial accounts. Important to put them separately. And obviously you take your profits first and you work back from there. You start off from a low base and your work yourself, we’ll put, everyone can afford an extra 1% to every quarter. I think the 1% thing, Garret, is aimed at making us getting going with us easier.
Even if you can do just a minimum of 1% you’re on the road then to success. Whereas it’d be just overwhelming to try and think more than that, you know. And if we remove that objection to the system and then you haven’t taken the operational side of it, which is actually kind of like this as well. One last part I forgot to mention was that, you know, he says you do all your accounting on two days of a month, attempt in the 2015 you pay all your bills, you send out all your invoices, et cetera, and that builds up a rhythm and then every core for then you pay yourself, not dividends on you.
It’s very quite important about, you said you paid shareholders according to their shareholding, whatever’s in a profit account, and the aim of that is, well you could say, why not just pay yourself monthly? And the aim of it is that if you paid yourself monthly to profit, it would just become part of your income and your lifestyle would expand to the Global Data as it tends to do.
It’s better to get that sort of lump sum every three months. Then you feel like, okay, actually you know what? This business is worth running. I’m getting something extra. I’m getting something for owning as well as running it. I’m working on it. That’s psychologically easier. You do it every three months because a year is too long, too much delay of gratification as someone who has experience. So I thought that was a good point as well. And then you use these five accounts, your income account, your owners, comp, profit taxes and OPEX and on you physically move money around in order to manage your expenses.
Good. Yeah, I think the quarterly payments actually very good idea, isn’t it? Because as you said, really, yeah. Rewards you and gives you something to look forward to and build towards. And as you said, is he quite right? And he said, you know, if you get an extra profit every month you will just increase your lifestyle. Just like you got that push when you started out on the big books James. And like you just say, yeah, I’ve got a Porsche, so what? Whereas I’m in a 20 year old Mercedes and you know, that just shows you the difference there between us.
That’s right. Not many people know of Porsche make bicycles, but, it’s a beauty.
Okay, well that was great. It was nice. Refreshing for me to be the one dropping all the knowledge, you know? I hope everyone appreciates that now. It’s not always Garret who knows everything and I’m enjoying my-
Oh no, James, I barely know my own stuff, but ask Grace. Very juicy. It was good book. A good book to bring up, and has a lot of good points in it that people should have a look at. Obviously read our book forced it is the main book. It is that from the main man here and give us a shout at James.Kennedy.procurementexpress.com
Cool. Until next time, stay profitable.
All right folks, there you have it. That wraps up our conversation with James Kennedy and Garrett Carrager. They shared a ton of valuable insights and advice today as they reviewed the book profit first by Mike Michalowicz. We also shared some tools and resources which will all be linked up in the show notes and don’t forget to click on one of those links to get a free chapter from the book profit leaks by James Kennedy and Garrett Carrager.
I hope you enjoyed our conversation. Please consider subscribing, sharing with a friend, or leaving us a review in your favorite podcast directory. Until next time, best of luck and all that you do and we’ll look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the gross profit podcast.